Forum:Humanoid species article issues
:Moved here from Talk:Humanoid species. :See also Forum:Which unnamed species need their own article? Many of the species pages that I've looked at have incorrect, incomplete or unsourced information. Rather than bringing this up on individual talk pages, where it's likely to be ignored, I've chosen to bring it up here. Aaamazzarite The screenshot should be replaced with a larger, high definition screenshot. The screenshot we have now makes it hard to tell whether or not they are really Aaamazzarites. Arcturian The article mentions that an Arcturian Starfleet officer was speaking with two Rhaandarites in the air tram station. We need a screenshot of that. Also the screenshot of the Arcturian in the crowd of Enterprise crewmembers should be expanded to show the people standing next to him. That will make the Arcturian easier to see for people watching the movie. Beta III native The natives of Beta III were clearly described as Human in dialogue: KIRK: Are you suggesting the Lawgivers are mere computers, that they aren't human? SPOCK: Quite human, Captain. It's simply that all the facts are not yet in. There are gaps. SPOCK: The late Landru, Captain. A marvellous feat of engineering. A computer capable of directing the lives of millions of Human beings. Beta III native should be removed from the list of Humanoid species and from the Unnamed species category. All characters native to Beta III should have their species changed from Beta III native to Human. Imhotep We can't just assume that Assan was a member of the Imhotep species. There's no proof. The Imhotep page should be renamed "Assan's species". The Unnamed Imhotep page should be renamed "List of Assan's species". We should leave a note that Assan might be a member of the Imhotep species. Ithenite The picture of the copper-skinned aliens from Journey To Babel should be removed. As far as I know, the copper-skinned aliens were never identified as Ithenites in any published script, magazine, commentary or interview. The copper-skinned aliens are already shown on the Unnamed humanoids (23rd century) page. Jye This page should be renamed "Chellick's species". The name "Jye" was never mentioned in dialogue or any publication that I'm aware of. K'normian We should try to find a screenshot of this species from the movie. Kazarite We should try to find a screenshot of this species from the movie. Kolaran This page should be renamed "Kolarus III native". There's a note on the page saying "Although not identified on screen, the name "Kolarans" is derived from production notes during the making of Nemesis." Where are these production notes? Are they among the special features on the Nemesis DVD? If we can't see these production notes, then they shouldn't be considered a reliable source. Markalian Regana Tosh's species was never identified in the episode or its script. All we know is that Regana Tosh was involved with a Markalian smuggling operation. The PADD image doesn't count because it's too blurry to read and refers to Regana Tosh by a completely different name, so it actually contradicts canon. This page should be renamed "Tarkalian" or "Regana Tosh's species". Megazoid This page should be renamed "Zeosian". That's what the species is called in the novelization. The name Megazoid comes from an old version of the script that has Saavik as the traitor instead of Valeris. The novelization is a lot closer to the film's story than the script. Mislenite This page should be renamed "Mislen native". The StarTrek.com database is not a reliable source of information. There are plenty of mistakes and the database probably wasn't written by anyone involved with the shows. Mokra The Mokra and the Alsaurians are clearly two different ethnic groups of the same species. They live on the same planet and the make-up is the same. The two pages may need to be merged together. At the least it should be mentioned on both pages that they are the same species. The word "Alsaurian" was only used once in dialogue to refer to the "Alsaurian resistance". So we don't know what the word "Alsaurian" really means. It could be an ethnic group, a religion or even the name of the leader of the resistance. Mylean The Mylean article claims that Myleans were incapable of walking due to having a fused spinal column. This is clearly nonsense. Myleans could never survive as a species if their entire race was disabled. Neelix was losing his ability to walk because of all the experiments he was being subjected to. Na'kuhl This page should be renamed "Vosk's species". The name Na'kuhl comes from the script, but that script was never published. As far as I know, the name Na'kuhl wasn't used in any commentaries, magazines or interviews, but I'm not sure so someone should check. Rigellian We should try to find a screenshot of this species from the movie. 892-IV native The dialogue never reveals whether they are Human or humanoid. Considering the fact that they spoke perfect English and the whole theme of the episode was parallel evolution, our default assumption should be that they are human. According to the novels, the Magna Romans were transplanted from Earth by the Preservers. All Roman characters should have their species changed from Roman to Human. Shamin The screenshot needs to be replaced with a clearer, high definition screenshot. The current screenshot just shows a blurry group of people. NetSpiker (talk) 05:10, February 22, 2015 (UTC) :Regarding the Na'kuhl, our policy is to use the script name if one exists, when the name is not given in canon, to avoid having many "Unnamed X" articles or otherwise making up a name. Another example of this is Livingston who was not named in canon. 31dot (talk) 13:58, February 22, 2015 (UTC) :Same goes for Mislenites; since no name was given in canon, we use the closest official name we can find. The Beta III natives have a separate page as they were not said to be colonists or otherwise humans who went from Earth to there. 31dot (talk) 14:02, February 22, 2015 (UTC) ::Jye, Kolaran, Markalian, Na'kuhl, and Mokra can easily be identified by information from the call sheets on which these species are listed. And call sheets are qualified production material. Tom (talk) 22:08, February 22, 2015 (UTC) Where is this supposed script? Where are these supposed call sheets? How do I know the editors of Memory Alpha didn't just make it up? If a piece of information can't be independently verified, then it shouldn't be here. For example, the Srivani were another species that was named in the script, but that's fine because that name also appears in the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the Star Trek Voyager Companion. Livingston was also mentioned in the Encyclopedia if I remember correctly. As for the Beta III natives, it doesn't matter if the episode doesn't explain why they are human. They are clearly called "humans" in dialogue, so that's what we should call them. In comparison, the Capellans, the Vaalians and the Sigma Draconis VI natives are called "humanoids" in dialogue. NetSpiker (talk) 23:26, February 22, 2015 (UTC) :::First of all; I've taken the bold and not-quite-rules-compliant step of editing the original post. I hope this sin might be forgiven in light of the fact that the links I added makes looking into these concerns way easier. :::Regarding the criticism of the Arcturian picture: the purpose of a picture isn't to help people find it, but to offer the best picture to illustrate the article. If it is really that much of a problem to find the Arcturian in the movie, then the more standard solution is to offer the necessary hints in a background note. :::Regarding the Beta III native, it may be of interest that Lazarus forms another case of a presumed alien being referred to as Human. And regarding the Roman (892-IV), Hodgkin's law explains all this and aliens that haven't been identified as Human defenatly shouldn't be identified as such by us. (that being said, way back I raised a separate issue about their naming on the associated talk page that hasn't been commented upon yet. Now's your second chance people!) :::Regarding the Imhotep: why is there a problem with labeling Assan a member of Imhoteb's species exactly? :::Regarding the Ithenites: the picture on the Ithenite page is used in the background section and is relevant there - definetly nothing improper there. :::Regarding the Jye - that needs a note saying the name was not used in dialog. I'll do that after this. And the statement on where "Kolaran" comes from is indeed vague. I'll ad Tom's input there that they were mentioned on call sheets. :::Regarding the Markalian: apparently someone was able to read that PADD. :::Regarding the Megazoid: that actually seems the most important concern in the list. Does someone else have any input on that? :::Regarding the Mokra: another valid concern imo. Talk:Alsaurian may is also relevant here. :::Regarding the Mylean: I don't think what you suggest is obvious, but it would be good to introduce the nuance in the article. I'll edit that article too. :::Final analysis; a lot of these concerns are about articles not being illustrated well enough. That's a valid criticism, and a working point. A large second group of concerns are due to misunderstandin of our policies, and can thus be easily dismissed. Thirdly, I've taken the step of making some edits to Jye, Kolaran and Mylean in relation to the concerns raised. What remains (in my opinion), is the question if Megazoids need to be renamed, an the issue with the Mokra/Alsaurians. Oh, and I don't quite understand the Imhoteb issue -- Capricorn (talk) 02:39, February 23, 2015 (UTC) Thanks for adding links to my post. I don't mind that at all. Lazarus' species should also be changed to Human if he was called a Human in the dialogue. The Romans were referred to as humans in several recent novels: Ex Machina Somehow, Spock was reminded of another time he and McCoy had been imprisoned together - some 5.65 years ago, on that planet populated by the descendants of Earth Romans seeds by the Preservers. The Poisoned Chalice The other woman was the same age as Vale, from a planet commonly known as Magna Roma. Atia's people were the descendants of humans transplanted from Earth's distant past to that world by an alien race known as the Preservers. Regarding the Imhotep, how do we know Assan is an Imhotep? Couldn't he be an Aksani or a Chessu, who were also participants in the race? Regarding the Markalians, it doesn't matter if someone was able to read the PADD. The PADD referred to Regana Tosh by a completely different name so it can't be a reliable source of information. This species was called Tarkalean in the episode Time's Orphan and B'kaazi in the Emissary novelization. If Memory Alpha's policy is that unpublished scripts and unpublished callsheets are considered valid sources, then these policies should be changed. What's to stop someone from making up information and then claiming it's from a script? NetSpiker (talk) 04:47, February 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::See the regarding the status of novalzations and dealing with conflicts in resources. - 06:26, February 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::Is it possible for there to be links to call sheets?Lakenheath72 (talk) 06:47, February 23, 2015 (UTC) That page doesn't even mention novelizations. And I don't see anything about what to do when different supplementary sources give different names for the same thing. NetSpiker (talk) 07:00, February 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::The page doesn't mention novelizations or novels as a valid production source because they're not one. Novelizations and novels can't be used to name things or people. You can mention that "X novel refers to Y as Z," and should, but we don't put that information in the in-universe sections of articles. ::::The deals with conflicts in resources seen on screen. The same thing generally applies to supplementary resources, mainly that we don't pick one over another if we don't have to. If we do, it should be explained why we chose the one we did. - 07:42, February 23, 2015 (UTC) Arcadians, Ariolo, Arkenites, Bzzit Khaht, Kasheeta and Xelatians were all named by the FASA role-playing game, yet we still use those names. So why can't we use names from novelizations? The Uxali are another species with an unsourced name. Does anyone know where it comes from? NetSpiker (talk) 09:22, February 23, 2015 (UTC) Just found out that the Kolarans were named in the CCG as "Kolaran Raiders". Also, the CCG does identify Regana Tosh and Durg as Markalians, so I stand corrected. NetSpiker (talk) 06:23, February 24, 2015 (UTC) The Nassuc's species link in the Category:Unnamed species page should be deleted. Nassuc is a Palamarian. If she was some other species it would make no sense for her faction to be called the Palamarian Freedom Brigade. When the Regent of Palamar said that Nassuc declared freedom for her homeworld, he must've been referring to a Palamarian colony. If someone is born on a planet, that planet is their homeworld. NetSpiker (talk) 14:01, February 28, 2015 (UTC) Is anyone still watching this thread? Nobody's answered my question about why species names from StarTrek.com and the FASA role-playing game are acceptable, but species names from novels are not. Why is one non-canon source more valid than another non-canon source? I now think that we should accept names from all official sources: scripts, novels, comics, reference books, magazines, card games, video games, RPG books and StarTrek.com. We should strive to have as few unnamed species as possible. If no one is watching this thread anymore, I'll present this suggestion in a new thread. NetSpiker (talk) 10:19, March 6, 2015 (UTC) :Scripts and StarTrek.com are already valid sources for names, but the problem with the others is that their content was not specifically cleared by those that work in producing Star Trek for the screen. What you are suggesting would work at Memory Beta, but not here. 31dot (talk) 10:25, March 6, 2015 (UTC) ::Also, please keep this discussion at one place. It's hard to follow when there are several pages with the same discussion. Tom (talk) 10:30, March 6, 2015 (UTC) The FASA role-playing game definitely had no involvement from those who produced the TV shows. In fact, FASA lost their license because Paramount wasn't happy with the way it was going. And yet, we still use FASA's Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update as a source for the names of various species. I don't know who wrote the articles in the StarTrek.com Database, but I don't think that anyone from the show was involved in it. I'm not saying we should include everything from the expanded universe. But we could use it to get names for species that weren't named in the show or the script. Isn't it better to have a page titled "Canopian" than a page titled "Nara's species"? NetSpiker (talk) 11:46, March 6, 2015 (UTC) ::::::* Regarding scripts, call sheets, etc.: I agree that ideally we should at least have a link to a document somewhere that supports the claim. It's always bothered me a bit that someone claims that "so-and-so document" or "this-or-that image" supports something, but nobody else has access to that source to see for themselves. It's one thing, obviously, if the claim comes from a respected and vetted production source's private collection, but someone just claiming they've seen the document... is that *really* enough? ::::::* Regarding Nassuc's species vs. Palamarian: Unless and until we declare "Palamaria" as a planet and not a region of space, or an empire, or some other grouping of planets, systems, colonies, etc., we can't say that a Palamarian is a member of a specific species vs. a member of some undefined group. Anything else is pure speculation, extrapolation and/or interpolation. Nassuc's homeworld *may* be a planet named Palamaria, or may be a planet that's a member of the Palamarian | Empire | Alliance | League | Coalition | Confederacy | Union | Syndicate | whatever. ::::::* Regarding use of FASA RPG material: We've already decided to allow startrek.com as a valid resource for background material, regardless of who wrote the material, be it one-time production staff or others. If the people posting material to startrek.com decide to reuse some material from FASA sources, then that FASA material (and *only* that reused FASA material) becomes valid for background use as well. We can certainly choose to open a discussion, as a community, on whether or not we continue to allow material from startrek.com, and vote on that issue after the discussion, and if we decide to disallow startrek.com at that point, all articles referencing material from startrek.com would have to be edited to remove the offending material. But until that occurs, startrek.com is a valid resource. ::::::* Regarding 'Isn't it better to have a page titled "Canopian" than a page titled "Nara's species"': It certainly is... as long as the name "Canopian" is derived from a canon (or accepted, as decided on by the community) source. -- Renegade54 (talk) 19:40, March 6, 2015 (UTC) I couldn't find the FASA-created names Arcadians, Ariolo, Arkenites, Bzzit Khaht, Kasheeta and Xelatians anywhere on StarTrek.com. I forgot to mention this earlier, but Nassuc and the Regent of Palamar appear to have the same make-up: a single vertical ridge with some kind of gem in the middle. Just to clarify, the Nassuc's species page doesn't exist anymore and I was asking how to remove the redirect from the Category:Unnamed species page. NetSpiker (talk) 00:14, March 7, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I agree, all of those FASA species names (Arcadian, Ariolo, Arkenite, Bzzit Khaht, Kasheeta, Xelatian) should be eliminated and the articles rewritten to refer to them as unnamed species. -- Renegade54 (talk) 23:20, March 8, 2015 (UTC)